Desmond Tutu interview with Dr. Franklin
The complete transcripts of interview conducted by Dr. Franklin with Desmond Tutu. Tutu was the chairman of the TRC in 1997.
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: I've often been a little concerned by people who say they are color-blind, people who claim, in some ways, not to be aware of race, and I hope that those who will be looking for a vision of the future will be a little more honest, and say race actually does matter.
DR. FRANKLIN: You know, there are two types of people, I think, who, who claim that a color-blind society is the ideal society. One is like the Justice of the United States Supreme Court, who, in 1896, said we are a color-blind society. What he was speaking of was an aspiration.
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes.
DR. FRANKLIN: But he was arguing that if we think about ourselves as belonging to a color-blind society, that itself is a constructive approach. The other kind of person is one who wants to insist that we are already in a color-blind society, and therefore, we don't need to do anything about the problems that we have, just, just think color-blind and the problems will themselves disappear. Now, obviously, in neither case is this a valid position to take, and I would say, with you, that what we need to do is not to claim that we're in a color-blind society, perhaps not even to aspire to a color-blind society, but to recognize--
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes; yes.
DR. FRANKLIN: --the exis--the differences that do exist and that cannot go away, will not go away.
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes.
DR. FRANKLIN: And do the best we can with these differences, even to the point, as our President said, last year, of celebrating--
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes.
DR. FRANKLIN: --the differences.
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Well, I, I would want to have to say it is a glorious thing. I mean, the acknowledgement that this person is English, white, or French, or German, this is Portuguese, this is Rwandan, this is Senegalese, this is a black South Africans. To, to speak of those positively, to say that they have characteristics, each one of them, that the others almost always do not have, and, and that there is a, there is a, a complementarily about it.
What I think most of us would want to assert very firmly is that race should not be used to claim privileges and rights for one group, exclusively, which are denied other different groups. Then that is an illegitimate use of race, and, and I would say our struggle against apartheid was precisely because people were seeking to say a value attaches to people because of this biological and, at this point, one would say a biological irrelevance.
DR. FRANKLIN: Yes. We've had a lot of that in our country, the United States, of course. We've had people who have used biological differences, who have used ethnic differences, to, to make a distinction, and to give one group an advantage--
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Absolutely. Yes.
DR. FRANKLIN: --over another group.
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Uh-huh.
DR. FRANKLIN: And that is a perversion--
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes.
DR. FRANKLIN: --of what ought to be an asset. Or at least a, a, a favorable position, or condition. There's no reason in the world why black should not be regarded as a, as an attribute that is not degrading but is, is positive. There's no reason in the world why any person should think that white is degrading.
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes; yes.
DR. FRANKLIN: But positive. And I suspect that the--so many of us, of different colors, have looked at our color in a way that we seek to find in it particular advantages,--
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes.
DR. FRANKLIN: --particular privileges, particular opportunities that we want to claim only for ourselves--
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Absolutely; absolutely.
DR. FRANKLIN: --and not for others, and that, it seems to me, is a perversion, whether it's used by blacks or whites or greens or yellows, or whatever.
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes. I, would hope, too, that those who may be watching this documentary would get to have a sense of the wonder of belonging in the family of God. That even one family is made up of individuals who are different. You know, I mean, you have tall people sometimes, you've got some who are not bright, too bright. Others are bright and some are beautiful; others are not so beautiful. But they, they belong in this family and, and the family affirms them, and I would, I would really, myself, hope that we could, we could have a vision of the world community, beginning to understand, more and more, that we were put on this planet to realize that we were family.
And, and, you see, sometimes--you see, sometimes, when there is a great disaster, how compassion and caringness come from so many different quarters, and people show a generosity for people who are in trouble. Now I, I think it's a bit too costly, if we're going to wait for disasters,--
DR. FRANKLIN: Disasters.
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: --for these particular attributes to come out. But the scientific, technological discoveries and advances that are being made, are, are bearing on us, and, and making us realize that we actually are occupying this as our island home. All of us together.
DR. FRANKLIN: You know, one can see that--if one can't see the world as a family, one can see it more narrowly, if you look, just look about you, and you'll see a family--
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes.
DR. FRANKLIN: --that's different, within the family--
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yeah.
DR. FRANKLIN: --there are these differences. There might be even differences of color--
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes.
DR. FRANKLIN: --in one family. Surely, there are differences so far as ability is concerned--
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes; yes.
DR. FRANKLIN: --in one family, and physiognomy in one family. So not all would be tall, not all would be short. Some would be different. Now, if you can have tha--those differences within one family, you ought to recognize the fact that this family must, by the very nature of the existence of it, respect each other.
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yeah; yeah.
DR. FRANKLIN: Love each other. Regard each other as, as, as members of a family.
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes.
DR. FRANKLIN: And, and have that kind of feeling that each member deserves. Now, if you can have that on the--on that small level, that, that individual level of the family, then you can think big--
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yeah; yeah.
DR. FRANKLIN: --and you can think in grand terms about the world being the same kind of family, and the things that you suggested, it would be easy to conceive--
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes.
DR. FRANKLIN: --by moving from the small--
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes.
DR. FRANKLIN: --to the large.
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Absolutely. I, I would, I would hope, I mean, that your eloquence will have begun to persuade some people, begin to look at things like defense budgets, where we spend obscene amounts of money for destruction and death, when we know that a very minute fraction of those budgets would enable God's children, everywhere, to have enough to eat, to have decent education, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and that would begin to see that our own survival does depend on our recognizing that we have brothers and sisters over there. And God sometimes tries to ram it down our--now I mean, really try to knock sense into our heads. You look at the economy of the world. You had trouble in Asia. It's not confined to Asia. Immediately, it has repercussions for the entire global economy, and it seems not to dawn on us that God is saying, "For goodness sake, recognize you are family."
DR. FRANKLIN: Yes. By the same token, we have other ways of looking at, at that, at that same problem. You know, in the United States, we spend enormous quantities for the incarceration of people.
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes.
DR. FRANKLIN: The finest and most modern building in my home town is the jail.
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yeah.
DR. FRANKLIN: We spend--that's really billions of dollars, each year, to keep people in jail, in prison. To confine them. To, to keep them away from society. And yet, at the same time, in the same community, we will debate week in and week out, day--month in and month out, about increasing the appropriations for schools--
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yeah.
DR. FRANKLIN: --by a fraction. Or increasing the opportunities for young people to learn a trade, or an occupation. To withhold opportunities for better health and so forth. We, we don't seem to realize that one way in which we can improve the human condition, and, indeed, prevent not only the incarceration of people, but, but limit warfare as well--
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes.
DR. FRANKLIN: --by refocusing and redirecting our energies and our resources in the direction that will be constructive and helpful and, indeed, will be for the improvement--
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yeah.
DR. FRANKLIN: --of man's condition.
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Let me ask you, as sort of one tiny question, maybe one that if, when you have answered, would be almost a good point at which to close our conversation. Having regard to all of the things that you and I have been discussing in our conversations, looking at the state of the world--are you pessimistic? Or are you hopeful about the future of the world, of humankind?
DR. FRANKLIN: I've been asked that question a number of times, particularly in the last 15 or 18 months, as I have sought to chair the President's Advisory Board, and I have reviewed the months and the reactions of people to what we have been trying to do, and I have been encouraged by the enthusiasm which they have expressed in the very idea of approaching the question of human relations, the relations of races, in a constructive and healthy manner. That so many people are relieved that in peacetime, relative peacetime, so far as races are concerned, in our country we have been able to talk about the matter.
DR. FRANKLIN: There are some who would not wish to discuss it, but there are large numbers who do with to discuss it, and as I have traveled about our own country and talked with literally thousands of people, and as I have witnessed the development of various promising practices, in small communities and in large, I have been drawn to the position that perhaps some day we can live as, as a peaceful, respectful, cordial group of human beings, and as I see our development along those lines--this is a long way around--but as I see our development along those lines, I do become cautiously optimistic
[Laughter.]
DR. FRANKLIN: What about you?
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yes. My own experience of our Truth and Reconciliation Commission left me with two distinct senses. The one was being overwhelmed by our capacity for evil. You know, when you heard the "horror stories," the atrocities, you really wondered, just what extraordinary people we could be in our inhumanity to one another.
But then, equally, I was exhilarated in the encounter that I had, or the magnanimity, the nobility of people who, having suffered as grievously as many of them had done, people who should have been, by rights, filled with anger and bitterness and hatred, and a lust for revenge--that those people could have this incredible
And so looking at the world, looking at South Africa and the fact that the so-called miracle of 1994 could happen, where--whereas the world was expecting a blood bath, we had a relative--relatively peaceful transition.
I have come, more and more, to believe that we do capacity to forgive. have a capacity to transcend the ghastlinesses. That we, we do have, I think, a hunger for goodness, that we have seen in so many people.
We do have a capacity for caring and compassion, and that we do have very many, in our societies, who are seeking to strive for a different kind of society--gentle, caring, compassionate, one that recognizes the worth of each person. That people in fact do matter more than things, more than, more than profits, and that we will in fact have a new kind of world.
DR. FRANKLIN: Let me say this. That we, many of us have looked at the proceedings in South Africa during the last four to five years with continued admiration for the capacity which all of you demonstrated, that you have that human quality of being able to, to endure, and at the same time, to forgive.
And I do believe that the example that you've set forth is an example not only for your own people but for people throughout the world, and that we are inspired and encouraged, that if you can do it, almost any people can do it.
And in the way that so many of your forebear--the forebears in your country sought examples and instruction from this country and its practices, in the establishment of apartheid, so we look to you as an example of how you can break down an evil, racist situation, and out of it erect a healthy society.
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: I don't want us to be a mutual admiration society, but I do want to let you know just how much we derived strength and inspiration from your struggles, from your achievements. As a small boy, I was taken by the story of Jackie Robinson, and inspired, and many, many times we have looked to yourselves and your own struggle, the civil rights movement.
We're used to singing with you, "We Shall Overcome," and so we are beneficiaries in our successful struggle of your support, your examples, your inspiration.
DR. FRANKLIN: Thank you.
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: God bless you.
DR. FRANKLIN: Thank you, and you, too.
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Thank you very, very much.
DR. FRANKLIN: Thank you very much, Archbishop.
ARCHBISHOP TUTU: It's been an honor to be with you.
DR. FRANKLIN: My privilege. My pleasure. My blessing.
