Minutes of Evidence, South African Native Affairs Commission, 1903-1905

Testimony of Martin Lutuli of the Natal Native Congress, before the South African Native Affairs Commission, May 28, 1904
[Extracts] (Published in Minutes of Evidence. South African Native Affairs Commission, 1903-1905)

32.069. You have got an institution in Natal called the Natal Native Congress? -- Yes.

32.070. Who is that composed of? Tell us what it is? -- So far as I know, the Natal Native congress is the voice of the Natives; they come together and talk about things, and if we find anything wrong, we can go to the Government about it, and present it to the Government, tell the Government what we think and what we see during that meeting.

32.071. How many of your people belong to that Congress? -- I cannot say how many. Of course, they come from all parts of the country.

32.072. You know whether it is a hundred or a thousand; which is it nearest to? -- When the meeting is called, sometimes there will be about 50, sometimes about 70, sometimes about 100; it never was more than 100 in the meeting called.

32.073. May everybody go to the meeting? -- They are free to go.

32.074. Are you the chairman? -- I was the chairman for three years?

32.075. How often do you hold meetings? Do you hold them many times in the year? -- Once a year.

32.076. Is that all the meetings you have? Have you a committee, for instance. Have you a committee or a council? -- We have the Missionary meetings and church meetings.

32,077. You have not a committee, which meets often? -- The Natal Native Congress meets once a year.

32.078. Have you got, besides the Congress, a committee or council that meets at other times? --Yes, we do appoint a committee if there is anything necessary to call a committee together for; it is called when we find there is anything for it to do.

32.079. You say the Congress is the voice of the people? -- Yes.

32.080. What are really the objects of the Congress firstly; then, secondly, what is it that the Congress aims at? -- The object is, so far as I know, this. If we want to talk to the Government, one man cannot talk alone; we must come together and decide things, and hear the opinion of others on a certain thing. Then if it is necessary for it to go to the Government, we appoint some delegates from that meeting to talk with the Government on that subject.

32.081. What are your aims? -- The welfare of the Native population under the Government.

32.082. What are the things that you discuss in your Congress? --Sometimes we discuss about how we should approach the Government to let the Native have the franchise- so that the Native can have a voice in the Parliament; because here in Natal we have no voice in Parliament whatever. That is another thing we talk about, but we have not brought that before the Government yet, to ask for it. Some say it is now the time to do it, and others say it is not the time, so we have not brought it before the Government yet, although we do talk about it. We also want to approach the Government to let the Natives be free in everything, let them buy lands if they like, if they are able to, and let them trade in the towns or out of the towns, and so on. Those are the things we talk about. We also talk about education; we say we have not got enough education. We do not think the Government is educating the Natives as far as it ought. That is what we talk about.

32.083. Are these the principal things? -- Those are the principal things.

32.084. You spoke about the franchise. You said that the Natives have no voice in Parliament? -- Yes.

32.085. I will ask you some questions about this afterwards. The next question I want to ask you are, in this Congress of yours are you suffering from any grievance at the present time? -- I cannot say we are suffering from any grievance.

32.086. Do you not feel that the Magistrate, the Secretary for Native Affairs, the Under Secretary for Native Affairs, and the Governor, represent the Natives? -- Yes, they do represent the Natives. We take the Secretary for Native Affairs in this way; he is there as Secretary for Native Affairs, but he is representing other parties. Other parties send him to the Parliament. The Natives do not send him to the Parliament. Those who send him to Parliament will be against the Native and will not like it if he does not do as they tell him to do. He is all right enough, we recognise him well enough, and we deal through him, and we like him, but there is that point.

32.087. Then there is the Under Secretary, who is a permanent officer? -- The Under Secretary for Native Affairs is a permanent officer, but he will talk of the matters through the Secretary for Native Affairs. They will go through the Secretary for Native Affairs. He is all right enough at his office, and we like him very much. We are pleased he is there at his office. We will be very sorry if he loses the office, but all matters, which go through him, go through the Secretary for Native Affairs, and other parties send the Secretary for Native Affairs.

32.088. You evidently do not think that at the present time you are fairly represented? -- Although we have discussed many things, we have not brought them all before the Government; some say it is time to bring it to the Government now, and some say it is not.

32.089. I am asking you what you think? -- I think myself that it is time we had a voice in the Parliament.

32.090. How do you think that voice can best make it heard -- in what way? --There should be some members who are there to represent the Native sent there by the Natives, and they will know they are to represent the Natives, to do Natives' work only, to look after the interests of the Natives.

32.091. How should these men be appointed; should they be nominated, or should they be elected? -- They should be elected.

32.092. Elected by the Natives themselves? -- In whatever way the Government thinks fit to elect these men.

32.093. I mean, should the election be by white people and by Natives, or by Natives only? -- Elected by white people and the Natives.

32.094. They should represent only Native affairs? -- They should represent Native affairs. The member should know he is there to represent Native interests.

32.095. Should he sit in Parliament, and have a voice and vote in Parliament, too? -- Yes.

32.096. You would like to see representatives of the Natives appointed specially for that purpose, sitting in Parliament? -- Yes.

32.097. Will you carry your views a little further? Do you think these representatives ought to be white men? -- Yes, they ought to be white men.

32.098. Not Natives? - Not Natives.

32.099. You have said that one of your grievances was that you were not free in every way, that you could not purchase land as you wished to. Do many Natives want to purchase land? -- Now they do; they have seen that they must have land of their own. Everybody wants to have land of his own.

32.100. They wish to purchase land? -- Yes.

32.101. Then you went on to say you wished to be able to purchase land in the town and out of the town? -- Anywhere we can.

32.102. Are you prohibited from purchasing land? --No, we are not prohibited from purchasing land, but there are some places where Natives are not allowed, say, for instance, at Eshowe; there they have passed a law to say that the Native has no right to have land.

32.103. In Zululand? - In Zululand. The Natives look at it in this way. Zululand was our own land, and although now it is under the Government, we ought to be the first. We ought not to be prohibited.

32.104. You wish to be able to buy land in the towns? -- Yes.

32.105. Are you allowed to do that? -- Yes, we are allowed to do it.

32.106. You wish to have the right to trade in towns? -- Yes.

32.107. Are you allowed to do that? -- Yes, we are allowed to do that.

32.108. And outside also? -- And outside also.

32.109. What is it you complain of? -- I bring this before the Commission because there are some places where you cannot go free; and I bring this before the Commission because I have heard it spoken of at meetings many times, so I must bring it before the Commission as they ask me.

32.110. You went on to say that the Government does not do enough for education. How would you have the Government do more? -- We have no Government school for Natives in Natal.

32.111. Nevertheless, does not the Government subscribe a good deal of money towards Native education? -- Yes, Government pays the money to have education in Mission schools to teach the children.

32.112. What changes would you like to see? -- I Would prefer that the Government should build a Government school to teach everything -- to teach the knowledge in head and hands and everything, to know how to work at trades such as blacksmiths, carpentering, mason work, and all those things.

32.113. Would you like to have industrial schools supported by the Government? -- Yes, when we meet together, we talk about it; I like it too.

32.114. Do you think the pupils of these schools ought to pay for that education? -- The children pay even now, if we send them to colleges. There are colleges under the Missionaries, and if we send them there they do pay; though it is little, they do pay something.

32.115. What I ask you is, supposing the Government were to put up a lot of money to build such schools as you indicate, do you think the pupils who go to these schools ought to pay sufficient to keep these schools going? -- Yes; they must pay for their education. Those who send their children there must pay something.

32.116. Do I understand you rightly when I infer that what you want is the opportunity for your children to be educated? -- Yes.

32.117. It is not that you are asking for money, but you are asking for opportunity? -- Yes, opportunity.

32.118. Is that quite clear? -- Yes, that is quite clear.

32.119. Have you ever lived much in the locations in Natal? -- No.

32.120. You do not know much about location life and the tribal system, and so on? -- I have not lived on a location. I have been always in a Mission station--all my life.

32.121. The matters in which you are interested are those relating to representation, education, and such like? -- Yes.

32.122. I suppose you know something about the land question. Do you like the present location system, under which the Natives hold the land in communal right under the Chiefs? -- Yes.

32.123. You like that? -- As at the present time?

32.124. Yes? - Yes; but it will not always be as it is. We are afraid that it will not always be like it is. For myself I would suggest that everyone should have a little piece, and know where he is, because in future there will be many troubles, and we are afraid that in time to come the Government might sell it, and the European might buy it all, and buy the Native's also, and he will not have anywhere to stay.

32.125. That is what is known as individual tenure? -- Individual tenure.

32.126. That is what you would like -- that each Native should be able to own a plot of ground of his own? -- If he can.

32.127. Should it be his own in freehold? --In any way the Government think best, to secure it for him and his generation.

32.128. Would you let him sell it? - I would not like him to sell it.

32.129. The Government should prevent him from selling it? -- Yes.

32.130. Even to Natives? -- Even to other Natives. Let them secure it for that individual for him and his generation.

32.131. Should it go from father to son? - From father to sons.

32.132. And if any man misbehave himself, would you take it away? -- The Government can make a law that; if he does not behave himself they would do this and that to him.

32.133. Do you think the Natives of Natal would like such a change as that? -- Now they would like such a change. They all see what is going on.

32.134. Would that not break up Chieftainship? -- It would not break up Chieftainship. A man may have land of his own, but he will recognise his Chief still.

32.135. In what way? -- In every way.

32.136. If the land belongs to the man, what is the good of the Chief coming along and giving him orders? The man might say, "No, I will not obey your orders"? -- I take it this way: At the present time those who have their own land, under their own Chiefs, do recognise their Chief, if they have their own lands. I know, too, that the Natives are people to recognise those who are superior over them.

32.137. What I mean is that the Chief has a power over the common man, that is to say, he may turn that man out, he may make it unpleasant for him; but if the common man be the owner of his ground, the Chief could not disturb him? -- Even now the Chief, unless the man is going against the law, cannot do as he likes with him.

32.138. Do you think Chieftainship is a good thing? Do you think it can go hand in hand with individual land tenure? -- Chieftainship helps the Government very much in many ways.

32.139. Do you think the Chiefs also would like this change of land system? -- Some of them do; some do not. They would like to have the land to themselves, and we call that greediness.

32.140. What opportunity have you had of learning what the views of the great mass of the Natives in Natal are on this subject? -I Go to the meetings, and meet the people, and we talk about many things. We talk about what is going on, and what is coming on, and what has passed. We talk about all these things. I see and meet the people, and talk with them about many things.

32.141. Do you think the Natives of Natal as a whole would like such a change as that? -- I think, if that way is opened to them, they will welcome it.

32.142. Do you think the Natives of Natal are backward? --They are not backward; they are advancing.

32.143. They are advancing now? -- They are.

32.144. Are they advancing fast enough? -- Not fast enough.

32.145. In what way would you hurry them? --I would put it in this way -- they are not advancing as fast as they should. The Government does not assist them to advance fast enough. If the Government were to throw education open to them, they would advance more.

32.146. Do you think that education alone is all that is required to advance them? -- I do not mean just education alone, but industrial training, and trades, and so on.

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32.170. Is there anything you have got in your mind that you would like to express your opinion on? -- Such as what?

32.171. Anything that I have not asked you about? -- There is a thing I would like to say a few words upon to the Commission, about which I hear most from the Natives, that is "isibahlo," the compulsory labour. The Natives cry about that everywhere.

32.172. Why do they cry? - Because they are turned out to go and work on the road parties.

32.173. That is the law? -- That is the law, and they do it, but they are not pleased with it.

32.174. Why are they not pleased with it? -- Because they go and work and it is not their own wish, and they get paid just what they are offered. The Government says, "We will give you so much." I hear many people talking and crying about that.

32.175. They prefer to seek labour where they wish? -- Yes, they prefer to go and work where they wish.

32.176. And would they be prepared to give something to the Government in exchange for this right that the Government has of calling them out for public works? -- I do not know whether they would turn round and say, "We pay our taxes."

32.177. Is that a grievance? -- Compulsory work?

32.178. Yes? - To the Natives it is.

32.179. But only a very few out of the population are affected by it? -- It is not a very few; it affects mostly every Chief, especially those in the locations.

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32.217. You say that the Natives would like representation in Parliament, and you say that their representatives should be chosen by the white men and the Natives together, and that they should only look after the black man and only vote on Native questions. What about the white men who helped to send those representatives to Parliament? Could not the white men turn round and say, "You are only looking after the Natives; what about our share?" Do you not think it would be better for the Governor to say, "I am going to choose you four men who will go to Parliament (or two men), and they must look after the Native interests only, and must not vote upon any white question. They must be the eyes and ears of the black men. These men are good white men, and they will go and sit in Parliament, and look after your interests." Would that not be better? -- That would be just the same as it is today.

32.218. No, today they are voted for? -- It would be just the same as it is today if the Natives did not elect their representatives but the Governor just took the men he thought fit to take and said, "Here you are."

32.219. How would it suit you if all the Natives came together and ten men were put before them, and the Governor said, "You must pick out four men from these ten; you must settle amongst yourselves which two or three or four men out of the ten shall represent you in Parliament." Would that not be a better plan? -- That the Natives should elect those men themselves?

32.220. Yes, would that be better than the Governor saying, "You four must go to Parliament," without any talking to the Natives? -- Yes.

32.221. You would prefer the Natives to pick out four men from the ten? -- Yes.

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32.241. Mr. Samuelson] You are not Chairman of the Natal Native Congress now, are you? -- Not this year.

32.242. Who is Chairman this year? -- Skweleti Nyongwana; I am only the Vice-Chairman.

32.243. How long were you Chairman? -- I think for about three years.

32.244. Did you not take for your cue or for your example the formation of the Farmers' Conference of the Colony in the formation of the Native Congress? -- I would not say that.

32.245. There are communities all over the old part of this Province, that is of Natal proper, who send representatives to the Natal Native Congress? -- Yes.

32.246. These communities who send delegates have committees for the local management of the affairs of the Congress? -- Yes.

32.247. The Congress has a secretary? -- Yes.

32.248. And the office of that secretary is at Verulam -- Yes.

32.249. How many Natives in this Colony are represented at the Congress? --I think I have already said.

32.250. I do not mean the persons representing the Natives, I mean the communities themselves, such as Driefontein, Innyanyadu, Edendale, and so on -- the communities represented? -- There are representatives from the Mission stations and some from Zululand, and there are delegates from Innyanyadu, Driefontein, Ladysmith, and other places.

32.251. You could not give us the number? -- I have not got the number.

32,252. There are various districts in the Colony represented? -- Yes.

32,253. None of those districts, which send representatives to the Congress, are of heathen tribes, that is to say, tribes under heathen Chiefs? - No.

32.254. It is only the Christian and civilised Natives who are represented on the Natal Native Congress? -- Yes.

32.255. Many of them have been exempted from Native law, and many of them are still under Native law? -- Yes.

32.256. You cannot say that the Natal Native Congress, which is really formed from the Christian and civilised Native community, in any way represents the great bulk of the population which is under Chiefs and in heathenism? -- I cannot say that, but the object of it is to represent the whole.

32.257. Native Chiefs and Headmen of Native tribes have not participated in the Native Congress so far? -- No, they do not send their representatives.

32.258. They have been invited, have they not, to send delegates to the conference? -- Yes.

32.259. And they have not done so? -- They have not done so.

32.260. Where? -- I have not got the number.

32,252. There are various districts in the Colony represented? --Yes.

3 2,253. None of those districts, which send representatives to the Congress, are of heathen tribes, that is to say, tribes under heathen Chiefs? -No.

32.254. It is only the Christian and civilised Natives who are represented on the Natal Native Congress? -- Yes.

32.255. Many of them have been exempted from Native law, and many of them are still under Native law? -- Yes.

32.256. You cannot say that the Natal Native Congress, which is really formed from the Christian and civilised Native community, in any way represents the great bulk of the population which is under Chiefs and in heathenism? -- I cannot say that, but the object of it is to represent the whole.

32.257. Native Chiefs and Headmen of Native tribes have not participated in the Native Congress so far? -- No, they do not send their representatives.

32.258. They have been invited, have they not, to send delegates to the conference? -- Yes.

32.259. And they have not done so? -- They have not done so.

32.260. Why? - I cannot say why.

Source:

Karis, T & Carter G. M. (1972). From Protest to Challenge: A Documentary History of African Politics in South Africa, 1882-1964, Volume 1: Protest and Hope, 1882-1934. Stanford University: Hanover Press.

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