Testimony of J. Tengo Jabavu, before the Select Committee on Native
Affairs, June 15, 1920 (Published in Minutes of Evidence, Select Committee on
Native Affairs)

77. Chairman.] Have you read the Native Affairs Bill, which is now before Parliament?
-- Yes.

78. What remarks have you to offer in connection with the provisions of the Bill? -- I
would first like to refer to the Commission. I have been translating your speech in the
House top to bottom and I can quite follow what your views are for the establishment
of confidence between the natives and whites of this country. To begin with, I think
that confidence should be established in connection with the Commission, and that
depends upon its personnel, if it is to be of any help both to the Government and the
natives. Of course, you must have Europeans on the Commission, but there should
also be a member or two of the native races in order to ensure that the whole thing,
from top to bottom, is a native affair and a native arrangement to meet the views
and wishes of the natives. I find in connection with church matters, which I am
interested in, where the church keeps natives out of positions and committees and so
on, we have trouble where we least expect it and I find that this is always due to the
fact that the native side of the question has probably not been studied by those from
outside and members of that sort would be a help to the Commission to see the
natives from the inside and would give satisfaction. Those are my remarks on the
Commission itself. Its appointment with me is a simple matter -- leave it to the
Prime Minister and his colleagues, because he knows what is best to carry out his
ideas and even in that respect I would not interfere with the appointment by making
any recommendation as to how the members should be elected. Start it going until
we have had some experience.

79. So you think that natives should be members of the Commission? -- Two would
be better than one. Two would be necessary to correct each other's ideas. One
member alone would have to bear a good deal of responsibility for any mistakes and
two members could better share the responsibility.

80. You are not afraid that the appointment of one or two natives on the Commission
would have the effect of rousing jealousy among the various native tribes of South
Africa? -- I do not know that in practice it would mean much -- it is only sentiment.

81. Would a Zulu member of a Commission carry any weight with natives of the
Transkei? -- Yes, if he was a generally recognised man, if the people knew who he
was, that he was capable, suitable in regard to character and also in regard to ability.
I suppose that is the rule followed in regard to other matters with the Government in
the Union.

82. We have a South Africa still divided by very distinct racial differences in various
native races and do not you think that the selection of one or two of these races for
representation on the committee will tend to weaken the Commission rather than
strengthen it, as other sections of the native population will consider that they are
not represented. If white men who know them and sympathise with them and who
are impartial are on the Commission, they would not mind that but if natives
belonging to their particular races were not appointed they would have no confidence
at all in the committee. Is there not a danger of that? -- We always find that as long
as there is a native on any committee they are satisfied and where such is not the
case you will find trouble.

83. So you have not this fear? -- Not the slightest. I think it will strengthen your
Commission. Whereas otherwise the agitator will point out and say, "Where is your
mandate," and that weakens the whole idea.

84. Are you in favour of these local councils? -- Absolutely, because they will help to
improve the conditions of the natives, because they will be managing their own
affairs. I am not quite certain as to what size you are going to make the districts.

85. We will have to deal with each case on its merits, and I think it will mean in
many cases a good deal of education among the natives themselves before they will
accept this local council government? -- I am afraid there you are going to make the
matter a dead letter because they are very conservative and even the existing
councils had to be forced upon them.

86. You think these local councils must be imposed in some places? -- Yes, it was
done in regard to Glen Grey district; it had to be forced upon them. If you leave it to
them it will be a dead letter.

87. As the natives themselves will not do it? -- They are divided and the backward
element will be strengthened.

88. The conservative element amongst the natives I take it is that which the chiefs
will influence? -- Yes, they think they are going to lose power, and I know that they
have that fear. It was always the fear from the beginning that certain powers would
be taken away from them.

89. We have taken some evidence as to whether the councils should be nominated
by the Government, after consultation with the area concerned, or elected by the
area concerned? -- I would like to know how big the councils would be. I come from
King William's Town, which is a very largely populated district. If you are going to
have only one council of nine members for the entire district the effect will not be
felt. You have 100,000 natives in one division.

90. The idea is to have workable areas where a council can supervise matters and
carry out local government properly. The view has been put to me that in these very
large areas the councils are not so useful. It must be a smaller and more workable
area? -- Yes, and I may say that in this connection my views are represented in the
report of the Commission appointed by the Cape Government in 1910.

91. What were your views? -- I advocated smaller districts. In King William's Town
they carved out three areas. I expressed the view in favour of the smaller areas and
they argued the matter very closely, and were convinced with my arguments. I would
suggest that a district area should be formed from these smaller councils.

92. You would group them and have a council representing the local ones? -- Yes, we
would have a King William's Town council elected from the smaller local councils, and
this will represent King William's Town fully. It will be in charge of the smaller ones
and from the district council communications could pass between it and the
Commission. We are also in favour of something being done in favour of a general
council to make general arrangements for the district councils -- a sort of Transkeian
General Council.

93. You say that your views are in that report? -- Yes, they are there represented.
There should be two councils in the Cape -- the Transkeian and the Ciskeian -- I
think it would work very well as a general council.

94. Do you think the Conference would be a useful institution? -- Very useful, but
before coming to the Conference there is a remark I wanted to make. I think the
Europeans in the native council area ought to work with the natives in that area, and
I do not sec how else it could be worked. Take the trades! In a native district, how
can they work apart from the Council?

95. It would never do to put white people in such a district as King William's Town
under a native council? -- They would be in the council themselves and it would be
very helpful.

96. Would the natives be satisfied with that? Once you give whites a chance on these
councils there is a serious danger of the whole matter falling into their hands? -- But
there are! So few of them in the native areas you may have three or four traders and
they would be a sort of "goats which lead sheep" in working the councils. Even in the
Transkei there was a difficulty in that respect but the Europeans enjoyed the fruits of
the local councils without taking responsibility.

97. The matter of the relations between the Provincial Council system on the one
hand and the local council system which we propose to establish is one that will have
to be worked out and seeing that there is a clause in the Bill under which the
Government may settle the relations between them and be guided by experience, we
will be able to see how to arrange these councils? -- I would leave it to regulation
and experience. It is a matter worth considering because the natives are at sea with
these new institutions. The whites need not have a preponderating influence. In the
Transkei their own Magistrates in the council guide the natives. I would like the
position of the European in a native area carefully considered by the Committee, but
I agree it is a matter, which should be considered by experience and on the advice of
the Commission. The conferences should also dovetail and these local councils and
provincial territorial councils might elect a certain number of representatives to the
general conference.

98. The idea of the conference is to have a means of meeting the natives and
discussing the question? -- If you have members elected by the general council you
will have men experienced in the areas.

99. Mr. P. W. Ie R. van Niekerk ] If you adopt that system solely you must have an
outstanding native who belongs to these councils, but he might not be
representative. The idea here is to get representative natives from different parts of
the Union to discuss native questions? -- I think the representative native should
come from a smaller council.

100. He might represent his own locality but there are some natives who are more
advanced and regard the question from a general policy point of view? -- If he could
be asked with representatives of the lower council that would be good.

101. But the conference would deal with questions affecting the Union? -- But they
are initiated in the smaller councils and the representatives will be quite familiar with
the questions in the lower council and would be able to discuss matters with a certain
amount of intelligence, but when new men come in without experience they may
prove the snare of the conference.

102. Chairman.] The idea was more to have occasional meetings when natives of
large areas could be met through their representatives and talk matters over? -- The
idea with us is the same only there is a little difference in detail.

103. Mr. Gow.] Do you represent any section of the natives? -- We have an
organisation, which we call the Native Races Congress and I am President of it.

104. Did they give you any particular views to express here? -- We discussed
matters with those members near by as to what was proper to be done.

105. You have no formal mandate from the Congress? -- There was no time.

106. Would it spoil the spirit and intention of the Bill if the Commission were
composed entirely of Europeans? -- It would, a great deal. You must have somebody
on it that understands the native people. Take a case like the Lovedale trouble. If
they had a native on that Committee I feel no trouble would have taken place. You
have white missionaries without natives amongst them, and they discuss the native
from their own point of view. The question might crop up whether you would not
have the native side fully expressed on the Commission; local councils are outside
the Commission, and my fear is that the European would look upon this from the
European point of view. The natives would be satisfied if they had two natives
appointed to the Commission.

107. In regard to the local council system, you may have one area adjoining another
where there may be very few natives. Would you go by the number of people in an
area or according to the size of the area? -- The size I would say.

108. You might have one area purely agricultural and another one an industrial area.
Do you suggest that it should be according to areas with community of interests?
--Yes, I should say so.

109. Are the people satisfied with the council system in the Transkei? -- Yes, they
would not part with it.

110. Should the natives on local councils be elected by the votes of the natives or be
appointed? -- By a hybrid arrangement.

111. Do you think all areas will understand the method of election and realise their
sense of responsibility? -- I can only speak of the Cape, and in the Cape they would
understand the elective element and also understand the reason for the nomination.

112. You say that traders in native areas should be on these councils in order to
guide the natives. Why should we consider Europeans at all, seeing that the proposal
in the Bill is to establish councils for natives? -- These Europeans are one and the
same with the natives, and would they not do just as well because they are familiar
with the natives at the bottom.

Source:

Karis, T & Carter G. M. (1972). From Protest to Challenge: A Documentary History of African Politics in South Africa, 1882-1964, Volume 1: Protest and Hope, 1882-1934. Stanford University: Hanover Press.

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