113. Chairman.] You are the President of the Cape Province Native Congress?

Yes.

114. You have read the Native Affairs Bill, which has been referred to this Committee?

Yes, and I have come before you to give the views of the Association which I represent. When we met at Queenstown last we had not seen the text of the Bill, but we knew what was going to be in the Bill.

115. How did you know if you had not seen the Bill?

From the Governor-General's speech at the opening of Parliament. I have seen the Bill since the Congress closed, and at the Congress we passed a tentative resolution, although we had not seen the Bill and had not sufficient information about it, to the effect that we could not accept the Bill and since reading the Bill I feel compelled to endorse the resolution. In the first place I consider that the Bill involves and perpetuates the objectionable principle of the political segregation or separation of the Bantu races and their exclusion from the political rights of the country. That is the first objection to this Bill. To my mind it amounts to a denial of the black man's rights of direct representation by members of his own race in the legislature of the country and carries into effect the principle of the colour bar in the South Africa Act, which lays it down that only persons of European descent can become Members of Parliament. If I am right in that view, that would be in conflict with what we consider to be our legitimate aspirations -- the right to be represented in Parliament which is charged with the duty of making laws for the peace, welfare and orderly government of the country and also for disbursing the public funds of the country. There is an important House which is responsible for shaping the destiny of the land and determining its fate and we feel in a House like that we should be directly represented and we feel that the time arrived when the question of our representation therein should be seriously considered and that nothing short of this can satisfy the wants of our people. In connection with this Bill, our Congress passed a resolution authorising the executive committee to petition Parliament with a view to amending the Act of Union by deleting the phrase, which constitutes what is now commonly called "the colour bar." An objection has generally been raised in connection with this matter of doing away with the colour bar that the native vote would swamp the European vote, and, in order to avoid that possibility, I would suggest (this is my own view, not that of Congress, and I do not know whether they would concur in that view) creating native constituencies. My personal opinion is that separate native constituencies should return native members to Parliament. I would not press for equal representation in Parliament at present with the Europeans, but I would say some modicum of representation. These constituencies might be: three in the Cape Province, two in the Transvaal, one in the Free State and one in Natal, each returning two native Members of Parliament. If that were done, it might also apply in the case of Provincial Councils. Then with regard to the local councils which are proposed to be established under the Bill, I consider they cannot give general satisfaction because they are local, divisional or of a parochial character and they would only deal with matters of a local nature, matters affecting the native in areas which might be called native areas or districts, and the natives in other parts of the country would not come under the scope of these local councils and therefore they would not have a share in the management of the affairs of the country. Those who are in native territories or districts would have a privilege in the management of their own affairs but others would be left out -- those outside those territories. Local councils are to possess I think advisory powers and no powers of legislation, whereas I consider legislation of the utmost importance -- more important than advisory power.

116. Local committees are not merely advisory, but, to a large extent, deal with their own affairs, and they also advise the Commission on general questions of policy. In that respect they are advisory, but in their local affairs they deal with them?

I see. Moreover, these local councils will be adopted in various. Parts of the country and, to my mind that would not conduce to their unifying the people, but would tend to divide the interests of the native people according to districts and localities.

117. You think that the establishment of local councils would be to accentuate divisions?

That is my view. There is a doubt in my mind if the Commission would be in the position to link the interests of all the natives throughout the Union. The creation of a Native Affairs Commission itself to my mind seems to be a superfluous arrangement. It is what I call the segregation of native affairs, and I am against that. If the Bill passes through Parliament I would respectfully suggest that the Commission be composed of 5 members, of which 3 should be native.

118. You are really against the Commission, but if it is appointed the native representation should be in the majority?

It will not be a majority because the Minister of Native Affairs will be a member of the Commission and another official of the Government will be a member in addition.

119. Apart from the attitude which you are adopting that there should be no political separation, no colour bar, that the political institutions of the country should be the same, do you not think, seeing that the native races are far behind the whites in this country in civilisation and development, that it would be a good thing to have local institutions established for the natives by themselves as in the Transkei? Would not that help them forward in development and education and also looking after their own affairs?

I think that would be a satisfactory arrangement. If care is taken in the selection of the members of the local councils and if the local councils are given ample powers in regard to local affairs. I see from the Bill that they have charge of agricultural, irrigation, hospitals and educational matters, and so on. If they get self-government in these matters they must be raised and educated up to a higher political standard.

120. Would it not be a good thing for the Government and Europeans in this country to try and get a closer understanding with the native because for years past we have been drifting apart? One of the proposed methods is to call big conferences of important natives at which questions of policy can be discussed. The present position is that white people pass a law affecting the native, and if we want to have peaceful development of this country, which contains both black and white, we must hold conferences with important, leading natives, and discuss things with them?

That would be a good thing, and I have always held that such conferences would be very useful.

121. You do not look upon your ideal of political fusion between the whites and natives of this country as practicable, as something, which can be carried out?

I believe that if the statesmen of the country really mean to do business it is a thing that can be brought within practical politics, because I feel that this political division is not in the interests of peace in this country. It tends to divide the white people and the native people and that, to my mind, are very dangerous -- more dangerous than political fusion. I am against social equality with the white man, because I know we are not equal, but as far as politics are concerned, I see no danger in equal rights. I would give the same franchise to the white and the native; I would not make any distinction. I am against the idea of making a distinction whether on the lines of colour or the state of civilisation. If there were manhood suffrage for whites it should be for blacks; but in view of the present condition of things, I would advocate the creation of separate native constituencies for the present.

122. At the same time you face the ultimate ideal and result that in the end if there is perfect equality, the whites, forming a minority in the country, will also be in a minority in the political life of the country?

I admit that it will be very hard for the white people of this country to agree to that fusion, and that is why I suggest the other alternative.

123. I take your attitude to be this: Apart from your political ideal, which you have very clearly and ably expressed, if you set it aside and look at the Bill on its merits, you are not opposed to its provisions. You think it is a step in the right direction?

Yes, I agree that it is a step in the right direction, and if I am against the Bill it is because I fear it is drifting farther away from the ideal of the Native Congress. As an instrument of government for the natives, it is undoubtedly a step in the right direction.

124. Mr. Keyter.] Supposing you had a district with 12,000 whites and 12,000 natives, do you wish two members to be appointed to Parliament for that district -- one for the blacks and one for the whites?

Yes, that is my idea, when I spoke of native constituencies I suggested there might be three of them in the Cape Province. I would select a limited number of native constituencies electing natives to Parliament. We are petitioning to alter the South Africa Act so that the qualification for members of Parliament might not be the colour or origin of the man, but that any British subject may become a Member of Parliament. For the present I would not press for equal representation of natives in Parliament with the white representation. I feel the state of dissatisfaction in the native mind is more dangerous than the native outnumbering the white people in Parliament, because even if they outnumber the white people in Parliament, the native would never be able to outclass the white man intellectually, even if there were a hundred natives in Parliament against 30 or 50 white members the word of the white man would always carry the day.

125. Chairman.] You think that the native mentality is in such a state, it would be better to give them direct representation to Parliament and face any opposition of the whites to such a policy?

Yes.

126. Mr. P. W. Ie R. van Niekerk.] To what extent does your Congress represent the natives? Have you branches all over the country?

Our Congress represents natives throughout the Union of South Africa. In the Cape Province -- we only started a provincial branch in October last year -- we have at present three district branches, one at Queenstown, one in the Cape Peninsula and one in Port Elizabeth. The one in the Cape Peninsula has 4 sub-branches, one at N'dabeni, one at Cape Town, one at West London and one at Huguenot. The one in Port Elizabeth has sub-branches at Richmond Hill, Korsten, New Brighton, Uitenhage and Humansdorp, and the one at Queenstown has sub-branches at Queenstown, Lesseyton and Kamastone. New branches are now being organised at Barkly West, De Aar, Naauwpoort, Herschel, Aliwal North, Tembuland, Maclear, Engcobo, Pondoland, Matatiele and Cala. At the last annual convention we had representatives from these places I have mentioned. In regard to the membership, only know as far as the branches already in existence are concerned and the total number is about 1,200, and already we are able to influence native opinion of those who are for the present outside the Congress. Their sympathies are entirely with the Congress. In the Transvaal the Congress is stronger than in any other part of the country. I may say that I am not averse to the local councils if the Bill goes through, provided they are given ample powers to deal with local affairs, because at present -- I am not speaking from direct knowledge but from what I hear -- the council in the Transkei has not much power. They discuss matters, pass resolutions and after passing them the magistrates have separate meetings of their own and sift and modify resolutions before they are forwarded to the Government. That is the objection I have always held against the councils. I lived in the Herschel district for six years before I came here and they were strongly against the council system, because they felt they were not in a position to carry out their resolutions -- no effect could be given them. I think that the larger mass of uneducated thought and opinion clamours for direct representation in Parliament and what makes me think so is because when we hold meetings with them or speak with them that is what they say. The native believes in Parliament because they had their own parliaments (called "courts") and every adult male was a member of the court and if he was not a member of the court he was not regarded as a man. The native court was not elected because every adult was a member of it. There were persons who were recognised as permanent members of the court, but everybody could attend and take part.

127. Rev. Mr. Mullineux.] Do you think it would be in the interests of the country as a whole that the franchise should be granted to the native people?

Yes.

128. Do you not think that would be going a little faster than the native people could keep pace with?

The uneducated native knows very little about franchise and he wants some representation in Parliament by members of his own race. He does not mind how it is affected, whether by popular vote as in the case of the white people or by native people being given the right to elect a certain number of native representatives -- that would satisfy him.

129. Do you not think that the development of the native people might be surer, if slower, under the Bill? It would be sounder along the lines suggested by the Bill?

My objection is that the councils are of a local character and confined to certain districts only.

130. Mr. Keyter.] You have stated that the majority of the natives are against segregation. In 1917 they were not against it, so since then have they changed their minds?

I do not know who gave evidence in 1917, but in 1913 when the Land Act was passed, we objected to it because it contained that principle of segregation and we also objected to the 1917 Bill on the same grounds mainly.

131. You are personally against segregation, but not the majority of the natives?

I represent the Native Congress and the members of that Congress are opposed to the policy of segregation. I represent the Free State natives who belong to the Congress.

132. If a native from the Free State came before this Committee and said they would be satisfied with this policy, would that be a story?

The natives of the Free State were bitter opponents of the Land Act, but I could not say they would be telling a story if they said they were satisfied.

Source:

Karis, T & Carter G. M. (1972). From Protest to Challenge: A Documentary History of African Politics in South Africa, 1882-1964, Volume 1: Protest and Hope, 1882-1934. Stanford University: Hanover Press.

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