Testimony of the Rev
Testimony of the Rev. E.T. Mpela, the Rev. B. Kumalo, J. Twayi, A. Jordaan, J. Mocher, J. Lavers, and Peter Thaslane,
of the Native Vigilance Association of the Orange River Colony, before the South African Native Affairs Commission, September 23, 1904 [Extracts]
(Published in Minutes of Evidence, South African Native Affairs Commission, 1903-1905)
39.127. Chairman.] I have got a letter here signed by Mpela, saying that the Native Vigilance Association of the Orange River Colony would like to give their evidence before this Commission; did you write this letter? -- Mpela: Yes.
39.128. We should like to know who the members of this deputation are? --Lavers: I am in business here, and I formerly belonged to the Cape Colony.
39.129. Mr. Stanford.] What tribe do you belong to? --I am a Tembu.
39.130. Chairman.] What business are you following? -- I am making bricks and am a cartage contractor.
39.131. And the next one? -- Mocher: I am a mason.
39.132. From what country are you? - From the Transvaal.
39.133. What tribe? - Matlonka.
39.134. And the next? -- Jordaan: I am a Cape boy.
39.135. And you? -- Twayi: I am a Fingo.
39.136. What are you doing? -- I am a dray cart driver.
39.137. And you, Kumalo? -- Kumalo: I am a Zulu.
39.138. You are a minister? -- Yes, I am a minister of the African Methodist Episcopal Church.
39.139. And the next -. Mpela: I am a Basuto, and I am also a minister.
39.140. From where do you come? -- From Basutoland.
39.141. Mr. Stanford.] What Church do you belong to? --To the African Methodist Episcopal Church.
39.142. Chairman.] And you, Thaslane? -- Thaslane: I am from the Transvaal, and am a cartage contractor.
39.143. Are you all members of the African Methodist Episcopal Church? -- No.
39.144. How many are members of that Church? -- Kumalo: Two; Mpela and myself.
39.145. Who is to be the spokesman of this deputation? -- Twayi: The Rev. Kumalo has been appointed spokesman.
39.146. Now, Kumalo, what is it that you are appointed and desire to state to this Commission? -- Kumalo: We considered that we were going to answer the questions put us according to the items as they appear on the list of subjects -- on each subject.
39.147. Have you answered those questions already in writing? -- No, we have not answered them yet; we have only had a discussion about them.
39.148. Are there not some particular subjects upon which you wish to speak which are on this list? -- Yes, there is the subject of land.
39.149. What do you want to say about land? -- It is only that, as you are aware, we have no right to buy land in this country. It has been our desire all along to have the right to buy land, as the black people have in the old Colony and in Natal. Their having the right to buy land in the other Colonies has made all the people here, who have not that right, desire also to be able to do so. They consider it to be slavery not to be allowed to buy land, especially as they have to live on those town lands known as locations where, especially at some places, the police have the right to enter when they wish. We consider, further, it is enlightenment and progressiveness, and those who wish to speculate must have the freedom to do so that other people have in speculating and buying land. We say that it is the desire of all our Natives to have a piece of land, either on a farm or in a town, and that they should not be prohibited from buying land wherever they think fit if they are in a position to do so, and that they should have in their possession their title deeds.
39.150. You are aware that the great number of Natives in
is living under what is called the communal tenure system? -- Yes.
39.151. Do you see any objection to that system? -- As I said before, we consider it slavery. Every man has the right to go on his land, and even the Town Council makes laws to affect even our wives, simply because we live on that ground.
39.152. Would you like a new law made which would enable you to buy land at pleasure? -- Yes.
39.153. And that would bring you more or less under the European law? -- Yes.
39.154. And would you like to be brought under the European law in all ways? --Yes; that is our desire, too, to be brought under European law.
39.155. Then, I suppose, under these circumstances it would be necessary to cancel all the old laws; such laws indeed as protect all the Natives in
in the reserves that they now occupy? -- We here will not represent that class of people who are still far in heathenism and in darkness, but for those who have already advanced it is so much the better that they should be cancelled, and let those people be governed by the one law governing all British subjects.
39.156. How many people do you represent? -- We represent what we call the enlightened people; we do not represent those people who are still under Native law in the true sense of the word. We are more or less governed by the Church laws, although, in the eye of the law, we are considered to be Native law; and the Church laws are those, which are governing, civilised people.
39.157. Then you recognise that Government must have two kinds of laws, one for the unenlightened and one for the enlightened? -- Yes; because we feel that it would not be fair to press those people who are still in heathenism to come up to those who are already enlightened. Still, we think that they should be encouraged to be brought to enlightenment.
39.158. And the whole point of your view is that those who have advanced and who desire to progress should be afforded facilities for their progressiveness? -- Yes.
39.159. That is the gist of everything? -- Yes.
39.160. But with regard to the great mass you have nothing to say; they and their lands should be let alone? -- May I ask one question: Do you refer to the Orange River Colony?
39.161. I refer to
? -- I confined my mind to the Orange River Colony, the Colony we represent; I do not allude to other places.
39.162. Well, answer for the Orange River Colony? -- We consider that the most of the people here in the Orange River Colony are civilised.
39.163. Most of the people? -- Yes.
39.164. What is your population? -- I could not exactly say.
39.165. How many Christians have you? -- At the different Churches?
39.166. Yes? --I do not consider that Christianity forms what we call civilisation only.
39.167. Well, how many can read and write? -- Even that I do not consider as civilisation.
39.168. What is civilisation? -- Civilisation is the state of living and of progressiveness, even whether you write or cannot write; if you live in a state of progressiveness that is civilisation.
39.169. Is that in the dictionary? -- I did not look at the dictionary; but I consider, in my explanation of the thing, that that is the position. Of course, the knowledge of writing and reading must come in sometimes to cause civilisation, but that is not the most essential factor.
39.170. Do you mean that the first footsteps that a Native may take towards civilisation at once make him a civilised man? -- No; it is the mode of his living. If he shows in his living, in his deeds, and in his works, that he is progressive, that causes civilisation. I can say this by way of illustration: Here is old Father Lavers; he can neither write nor read, and yet his mode of living in his home is that of a civilised person. I would therefore call him a civilised man.
39.171. You have expressed yourself on this point, and have covered what you might call the subject of land tenure? -- Yes.
39.172. Is there any other point upon which you would like to speak? -- The franchise.
39.173. What have you to say about the franchise? -- That is another desire we have. We wish also to enjoy the privilege of the franchise.
39.174. That is, if you acquire the qualification laid down by the law, you should be allowed to exercise the right of voting? -- Yes.
39.175. Do you say that in view of what you have just said with regard to the progressiveness of the Natives? -- Yes; I would not force those Natives who are still in darkness; I only refer to those who are progressive in their minds and civilised in their modes of living.
39.176. Then your arguments are practically the same as those you used in regard to the acquisition of land? -- Yes.
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39.194. What is the next subject? - Administration of local affairs; I would like a little explanation of this.
39.195. In a word it is this: In some parts of
there are what are called District Councils of Natives, formed of Headmen and other appointed representative Natives, presided over by the Magistrate. In those Councils they discuss matters relating to the Natives in the respective districts where they exist, such matters as schools, roads, and other things, and the people pay a special tax of 10s. a year towards the upkeep of the schools? -- That is done under the Glen Grey Act?
39.196. Yes; they have a certain share in the management of their own affairs? -- In this Colony we have locations belonging to the Town Council. We have not, as they have in the Cape Colony under the Glen Grey Act, District Councils; we have Town Councils.
39.197. And so they have in all large towns, such as Cape Town and Port Elizabeth? -- Yes. If that is included in this heading, "Administration of Local Affairs," I would recommend that the Natives should look after their own work in the location. They should appoint men to discuss matters; and even monies that are collected from the location should be used to improve the location.
39.198. Is that not done? - No, it is not done.
39.199. It is done in some parts of
, where they have a Council of the leaders of the location, who are consulted on matters affecting that location? --I do not remember any.
39.200. At any rate that is what you think might well be done? --Yes, to manage their own local affairs in the location. We especially consider it a great grievance in regard to these policemen. The Town Council here says our wives must have tickets, and of course, sometimes they forget those tickets; then for a man to catch hold of another man's wife and say, "Give me your ticket," is a thing we do not like -- because these policemen handle the matter in any way. I know we have a remedy in Court, but the thing has happened as I have described it, and we consider it to be a great grievance about these Municipal tickets.
39.201. Tickets for the women? - Yes, tickets for the women. People who are living in a good mode. And for men also, I may say.
39.202. You recognise, I suppose, that it is necessary for any Municipality to keep a proper control over the people living within the Municipal limits? -- Control can be kept without that.
39.203. Have you not got a very large number of what we may call loose and irresponsible men and women living in this location? -- I will not say that we have not; we have such people at different places.
39.204. Is it not; perhaps, with the object of creating a better moral atmosphere that the Municipality has taken this measure? -- No, it is not on account of that; it is merely to increase their monies.
39.205. Supposing it was for some moral reason--would you approve of it on that ground? -- Yes; although we must bear in mind that when people come together, it must always occur that the morals become affected in some way. With every civilised people that must occur; and it must occur in all countries, with all classes and colours of people.
39.206. The view you want to express is, that such a regulation as you have described can be administered too harshly? -- Yes. I think, if the Natives themselves were managing their own affairs, they would work it better, and the morals of the people could be better looked after. The Town Council makes laws for these people, but they do not take much interest in their progress. If we have to have such locations, I would recommend that they be on landed property that is bought by the people themselves, because if the people buy the land they will improve it, and Natives will have no right to go and cluster there, because the owners will be held responsible for their advent. I should say that it is the fault of the Municipality that this immorality is going on.
39.207. In all these things, you mean to say, you think the Native should be consulted? --Yes; and furthermore, when they do consult the Natives, they do not consult those people who will give them enlightenment, but they always go to those people who will not give them enlightenment on things affecting the Natives. Even if they do go sometimes to an enlightened person, I think that we, who are the leaders of our people, are the persons who should be consulted on anything affecting the interests of the Natives in the country. We are the people who should be consulted, but what do they do? Even the Government will sometimes go to those raw Natives, and want the Natives to give them ideas as regards us who have left that state of heathenism and darkness. The desire may be to uplift the Natives, but by going to enquire of those people, who are still in darkness, is to press those who are already enlightened down.
39.208. I want you to deal with the general principle, and not to be particular as to what is happening in the town of Bloemfontein. It is not a part of the scope of our enquiry as to what is being done by Bloemfontein particularly, or by any particular Government; but we are enquiring into principles. Well, we have heard your views upon that. Is there any other subject? -- Education.
39.209. What have you to say upon the subject of education? -- The best form of education is compulsory education; compulsory education for us would be a very good thing. And when we have education, I think it would be better that we should have it for a certain object. If a person wants to be a teacher, he must study for that purpose, and if he wants to be anything else, he should study with that end in view. We are accused of having a little education, which is spoiling us, and yet in view of that accusation which is brought against us, even the Government has set a standard where the Native must end his education--a standard which does not enable the Native to reach that point in education which will not spoil him. And in regard to industrial education, it is only training to go and plough the ground and sow seed. The Natives all do that. Every Native knows how to plough ground, and to sow seed, and how to do all that kind of thing. That is not what is wanted. They must be taught to study the soil, and they must be enabled to study everything, so that they can improve. With the industrial education given at present, even in becoming a mason, they are only taught to take a brick and some clay, and to put it down in its place. That is not industrial education enough. When they know those things, they must learn how to make contracts, and they must know all the other branches of work, which will make them skilled workmen.
39.210. What is it that you are now aiming at? Is it the opportunity to learn those trades? --What we have now, is merely to have a young man sent to school and apprenticed, and he has to take two pieces of wood, and knock them together with a nail; and when he comes out of school he does not understand a trade at all.
39.211. Why do you say that? What is your experience? Have you been through it yourself? -- I have been studying the Natives as I have been looking at them.
39.212. Have you been to the industrial schools where those things are being taught? ---No, I have not been there, but I have studied the result of the industrial schools.
39.213. Where have you studied it? -- Amongst the Natives who have come from those places.
39.214. Do you think that all they learn is to knock two bits of wood together with a nail? -- Yes, or to make a box, or a table, and such little things. But they know nothing about a trade. They do not become skilled workmen.
39.215. And what is it now that you wish? -- If Natives are taken to be taught industrial work; they must be taught to understand all about it. If, for instance, a Native is to become a carpenter, he must be a skilled man. Of course, I know that they cannot all become skilled men, but that is not the point. If they are taught to do anything, such as ploughing or carpentry work, as I have mentioned, they must be taught thoroughly those things, so that their mind will always be desirous of doing the thing properly. Sometimes, when they have not got enough education in the doing of those things their mind becomes benumbed, and they get tired, and cannot go on to reach those places, which would improve them, and make their earnings better. They get discouraged, because they have not got the right thing. Therefore, I say, if this compulsory education comes about, it must be that kind of education, which will improve them.
39.216. Do you want compulsory education? -- I think it would be a good thing.
39.217. Do you think the State ought to pay for it? -- I think it ought to be taken from the taxes paid by the Natives towards the revenue of the state.
39.218. With regard to the high form of industrial education, which you have indicated, do you think that the Natives themselves ought to pay for that? -- Yes; but the Government must help them.
39,219. In what way? -- The Government can help them by erecting those institutions, and receive from each of the pupils a small fee on entering for that work.
39.223. It is difficult for Natives to find work? --[Mpela] Yes.
39.224. What you would like is that when once a man is educated he should always be able to secure work? -- Yes; he should be able to secure work from the Government.
39.225. Many educated Natives have not got work: Is that it? -- Yes.
39.226. Does not that rather open your eyes to the fact that there is a danger in over-educating the masses, because there will be no work for them to do? -- That is just the thing. If the Native could be given a proper and thorough education it would not be like educating the masses. You would get the proper men in the proper place; but now you view all Natives alike, and that is where the trouble comes in.
39.227. What work would you find for them if they were educated in the way you allude to? -- If you could get thoroughly-educated Natives, and if you could put them anywhere, to be Magistrates' clerks, or anything like that, that would be good for them, and it would also be good for other Natives, because they are looking after those children when they send them to school. Boys, when they come back from school, must take a prominent place in the country.
39.228. That is your aim: that your children should be well educated, and made able to occupy the offices of the State? -- Yes. I would also speak about the indirect taxation. We think that there is too much of it at present upon the shoulders of the Natives, especially in the way of these travelling passes, Municipal passes, and other things like that.
39.229. You call that indirect taxation do you? -- Yes, if a man has to pay for a pass when he gets it, then it is indirect taxation.
39.230. Do you mean that when the Native has to get passes they ought to be free and not paid for? -- Yes; because it is for the protection of good people. The Native is made to pay for that pass, and by that he is made to contribute to the State too much, because when the monies are aggregated at the end of the year, you will find that the Native has paid more than he expects, and has benefited very little.
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39.235. Mr. Stanford.] You seem to advise that a very distinct line should be drawn between the Native who still practices the old heathenish customs and the Native who has emerged there from and adopted a certain measure of civilisation? -- Kumalo: Yes.
39.236. Would there not be a difficulty in placing individuals in respect of such a line? How is the Government to gauge the measure of civilisation, which has been arrived at here and there by any individual Native? -- As I have said, in this Orange River Colony, our people are already reaching this stage of civilisation, and are reaching it daily, whilst in such places as Basutoland and others, the people are not civilised.
39.237. Are you really justified in saying that the majority of the Natives in the Orange River Colony are more advanced than the Natives in Basutoland? -- Yes, I am justified in saying so. I think they are even more advanced than the people in the old Colony, because in the old Colony they have education, but they are not progressing in their mode of living in their homes. Educationally, the old Colony is far superior to this country, but in the mode of living, these people are far more civilised than those in the Colony.
39.238. Is it not a fact that a great many of these people living on the farms hardly use any European clothing at all, and are living very much in the old Barolong style? - No; the majority would be those that are living in the European style of clothing.
39.239. On the farms? - Yes.
39.240. Where they are at service amongst the European farmers? -- Yes.
39.241. Then your contention is, that the majority in this Colony are now fit to exercise the rights of franchise, and to be freeholders in respect of landed property? - Not those who are still at the back, but for all those who are showing their progressiveness in their mode of living and otherwise, I say yes.
39.242. Mr. Thompson.] I would like you to give me your opinion on this scheme: If the Government of the Orange River Colony were to-day to move you all -- you and the unenlightened -- to a spot a couple or three miles out of Bloemfontein, there cut up plots of half-acres, sell you those plots, and keep you in there, right out of town, away from the white people, would that meet your idea? -- Not fully, because that would not give the black man the right to buy land in town. He ought to have the right to buy land in the town even, and to speculate if he wishes to.
39,243. But answer this first: Would you not like to see, in the first place, all the Natives moved from these slums and all about, and put a couple of miles out of the town, with a proper railway system to bring them out in the morning, and take them back at night, ring the curfew bell at night, at nine o'clock, and keep them in their town. Do you not think that would be in the interests of the Natives as a whole round Bloemfontein? --Yes, it would be a good plan; you mean also that they should manage their affairs there?
39,244. Yes, they can have their own Council to manage their own affairs. You would not consider it a hardship if the Native was told, "You cannot live here, but you must go out to your own township"? -- Yes, that would be a proper thing; it would teach them to recognise and to know each other. That would be the best, I think; but not to interfere with their business things.
39,245. They could come in and carry on their business, but there they must go for their homes? -- Yes, I think that would be the best.
Source:
Karis, T & Carter G. M. (1972). From Protest to Challenge: A Documentary History of African Politics in South Africa, 1882-1964, Volume 1: Protest and Hope, 1882-1934. Stanford University: Hanover Press.
