Interview

The interview was conducted by Dr. Essop Pahad over several months, in 1979, in London with Dr. Yusuf Dadoo, the then chairperson of the South African communist party.

Please note: The interview will be uploaded in sections.

Essop Pahad: ?This is an interview with Dr Yusuf Dadoo.  Doc, what I suggest we do in the beginning is that you speak about your youth in Krugersdorp ? what were your first impressions, first reactions, what ? if any ? difficulties you may have experienced in your youth, what Krugersdorp was like at that time, from what you can remember, then we can lead it up to your days at school ? what you were doing at school up to the time of the [Class?] Areas Bill of 1924 when Sarojini Naidoo comes to South Africa and you are the main leader of the students in organizing welcome committee for Sarojini.  Then, later, we can talk about how you had to go back to India to continue with your studies and what kind of influences that had to bear upon you.  And I suggest what we do is we just speak as the things come in your mind because we can make the thing more coherent at a later stage if it proves necessary.  Okay.

Yusuf Dadoo: Ya, well, I think that would be that best way.  I?ll just try to recollect as I go along through the stages in my youth, in schooling and so on.  Well, as far as I recollect, my first schooling was in Krugersdorp.  They had a coloured school where they allowed Indian boys to study together so there was Standard One, as far as I recollect, passed the Standard Two, I was at this coloured school and well, of course it was a separate school, apart from the whites, but it was in a separate coloured area.  We had to go there to the school.  So far as the school itself was concerned, the coloureds had no problem with us.  It was, as far as I recollect, quite a ? in so far as the school itself was concerned ? with coloured teachers and so on ? that it went well.  And then I think for the time, about 19 - about 1917 or the beginning of ?18, when my father decided to go for a holiday to India.  He took the family ? it was my mother and myself and my other brother and sister.  And when ? it was during the time of the war, what I recollect, was about going the ships, you know, blackout at night and, you know, the fear of German submarines [were roaming around?] in the Indian Ocean.  Then, of course, it?s my experience in India, well, I don?t recollect very much but, you know, I thought that going to a country where there would be more freedom because I remember in Krugersdorp there was a park where it was only for whites and, you know, non-whites, blacks, were not allowed.  If you went with a nanny, you know, you had to just walk on the pavement and so on.  And I was dreaming that I would go to India that I would be able to walk freely in these kind of parks and so on.  Well, remember, it was the monsoon season and of course we had to go to the villages and having to cross the river from one side to the other.  It was just mud and slush and people would carry you on ? put you on that little boat there, rowing boat, which takes you from one side to the other.  And I, having ??? of course, there were no gardens at this time ? it was just mud and slush ? so that was in a way a disappointment for me.  Then, of course, I had to go there to the madressa ? that?s the religious teaching, you know, the madressa and the way ? the harsh way in which the teachers, Islamic teachers, used to treat you didn?t ? I didn?t find it, myself, in a ? I never, unpleasant, must fear, you know, it was a whole punishment way, rigid and so on.  And I ? from that point of view, I didn?t really like going to the madressa.  How ? I don?t know recollect how long we stayed there ? it was about possibly a year.  I remember my father had to go back to South Africa because of the ? the case of the [limited company?], you know, in terms of the discrimination there and the Krugersdorp Municipality had taken ? because it was a [goal?] area and they questioned about the company being formed ? they said it was not ? it was illegal in terms of the law.  It was that litigation that my father had to go for and his idea was to leave the family behind and go alone but I wasn?t very keen to stay there ? [I had enough?] [laughs] ? and I had to take a ???.  It was still the ? the period of the war coming to an end, but the war period and we had to go all the way to Calcutta to catch a boat, and, of course, I [got?] malaria and it was a quite severe type and ? in those days you were supposed to take ??? and so on but, even after reaching South Africa, I had to be treated and confined to bed for almost six months with malaria ? eventually got rid of it.  By that time the Indians and the school, you know which, you had to go to an Indian school and an Indian school was opened in Johannesburg and we were in Krugersdorp so it was a question of travelling a day twenty miles by train to Johannesburg, you know, to take Krugersdorp to the Mayfair station in Johannesburg, from there walk to the Government Indian School ? it was called - in Newtown.  Well, it was first of all walking twenty minutes from the house to the station then taking the train and then walking from ? at the other end for about ten minutes from the station to the school and that wasn?t ? to put it at its lowest, it?s not a very pleasant experience at all because going from ? walking up to the station, you know, we used to meet white children also going to school, their school, but ? and there were many occasions on which they used to taunt us, you know, they were about ? we were a group of about three or four going from Krugersdorp at the time to the school and the way they used to taunt us, you know, little things like saying, ?Sammy, Sammy, ring a bell, coolie, coolie, go to hell,? things like that which used to infuriate us and ? well, sometimes we, you know, bash at them and they used to bash at us.  Well, that was quite a frequent occurrence, not only like going from home to the Krugersdorp station but from Mayfair to the Indian school and we used to have quite a few fights on the way ? both ways.  Then, of course, the experience on the train when you had to travel in separate compartments ? the compartment right at the back and you had to wait for it and not allowed in any other part.  This kind of discrimination also, although we were young, but we used to feel very keenly the insult, you know, the question of having to be separated out, to be weeded out and put in a separate compartment in the back.

Essop Pahad: Were you afraid of going to school because you always met up with these white kids who taunted you and you had these physical fights and that?

Yusuf Dadoo: Well, at times ? it depended on, you know, whether we proved to be a match ? sometimes there were more stronger boys and then, of course, at that time, it was a bit of a fearful experience but then, of course, in our school in Johannesburg there were quite a few ? the fellows were quite strong and [boxers?]  They used to ? they stayed in Johannesburg but they used to come part of the way and then in that kind of fights that were sometimes we had the better of it, sometimes the worse.  That was the kind of thing that used to go on ? not knowing who will get the better of it and, of course, at ? because of this, you know, the ? it was resentment, the feeling of resentment against ? to the white people.  And that?s another kind of thing that used to happen because after coming from school, now, sometimes, you know, the parents or somebody in the shop used to send us to the post office or something ? the same experience happened.  And the way that they treated the non-whites, the blacks, it was always an aggravation, you were always in a state of aggravation because of this kind of thing that you had to look.  And, of course, one other thing is young ??? to make it better ? I was ? I suppose it was because of Gandhiji being in South Africa then he had gone to India and what was happening in India, you know, we used to get the news about the national movement going on in India ? and that was about the kind of Indian nationalism when one, you know, we had Gandhi and all the other leaders in India such that we had 1919 and ?20, we had leaders like Jawarhlall Nehru and Mohammed Ali and Shokat Ali and Gandhi and Azad and, and [Lutchpathrai?] and all the others.  And, so because of this ? the experience we suffered there and the struggle that was conducted there, you know, we had a strong feeling, an affinity with the struggle in India and, and because that struggle was against British imperialism, even at that young age, there was this feeling against ??? here and well, a terrible thing perhaps to say now, but even, you know, 1919 after the armistice, you know, te 11th of November when they had two minutes silence at 11 o?clock, in school they used to, you know, to observe two minutes? silence ? well, because of our ? this feeling of, of antagonism towards imperialism that, you know, that you observe silence for those who fought in the war, our feeling was ? not only mine but some of my other colleagues who were with me like Katchaliya, and Sodha and others whose fathers were very closely associated and almost ??? with Gandhiji in the old days ? that in some way we felt sorry that the British won the war [laughs], you know, that kind of feeling.

I: But I must point out at this time you are only ten years old.

Yusuf Dadoo: Ya.

Essop Pahad: And already you are having such thoughts about the struggle and relating it to what?s happening in India and that.

Yusuf Dadoo: And not only that ? for instance, that, say after 1919, where after the [??? Bhag?], that great moment in India that every time some of the outstanding leaders were arrested or if there was a day of ??? in India, there was a group of us young people and we were also of course influenced at that stage by PH Joshi who was a teacher who had just come from India and who was a nationalist at heart and even used to, you know, identify himself by putting on a Gandhi cap ? and on all such occasions, we used to organize stayaway at school, not to attend classes and, not only that, but that some of us used to go in the, to the Indian shopkeepers and others and ask them to close the shops on such occasions.

Essop Pahad: And what was the response of these ? the Indians?

Yusuf Dadoo: By and large it was good, of course not all but there were quite a few because, after all, they were all in the old days associated with Gandhi and the struggle and therefore, it was surprisingly good response ? not all, of course, there were quite a few who wouldn?t ? some would chase us away and so on but we collected some funds for the movement.  The other thing which appealed to me ? and although I was ten or eleven, but the old stalwarts of Gandhi, they used to, you know, once a month or twice a month, used to have their meetings in the [Pathidar?] Hall on Sundays and there was the old stalwarts like Aswad and [Meer?] and Natvi Rajah and PK Naidoo.

Essop Pahad: PK?

Yusuf Dadoo: Ya, you know, who was the secretary of the Transvaal British and Indian.

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