FACE THE NATION was recorded in Johannesburg. In this interview the Prime Minister was questioned by Robin Wright who reports for CBS News in Southern Africa, Jack Foisie, Johannesburg correspondent of the LOS ANGELES TIMES, and George Herman of CBS News in Washington. The programme was sent by satellite to Washington and seen throughout the United States.

George Herman: Prime Minister Vorster, one of the first things that a stranger arriving in your country notices in all of your newspapers, is an attitude of worry about the new administration of President-elect Jimmy Carter. What is the basis for worry, editorial worry, in your newspapers about the new President-elect?

Prime Minister Vorster: No, I do not think that "worry" is the right word. Naturally we are all anxious to know more about the new President, because you will realise that, from what I have read, up till 22 months ago he was a comparative stranger in your own country and consequently we do not know as much about him as we would like to and, therefore, I think it is more a question of wondering than worrying.

George Herman: Prime Minister Vorster, I do not like to disagree with a Head of State, but it does seem to me that some of the articles I have read in your newspapers have worried about certain things that president-elect Carter has said in interviews about your country and about his own views about your country. Do you not share that apprehension?

Prime Minister: I am not prepared, especially in these days we live in, to judge any man according to newspaper articles. I would rather wait and see what the man does and then judge him according to his deeds and actions than to judge him otherwise.

Jack Foisie: Sir, now I turn to your neighbour state, Rhodesia, and the current summit talks going on. They appear fragile. What hope do you have of an ultimate solution satisfactory to both Blacks and Whites in Rhodesia?

Prime Minister: Well it depends entirely - when you talk about such a solution — on whether both parties really want a solution and all I am prepared to say in reply to this specific question, is that if both parties want a solution then a solution is possible. But, of course, there is a new element in this matter: Mr. Smith made his statement, as you know, on the 24th of September and he put forward five points. 1 Those points are not Mr. Smith's points and somehow people do not really appreciate that and I think if you will allow me I can put it not better than Dr. Kissinger himself put it. You will recall, as I have said, that Mr. Smith spoke on the 24th of September and thereafter on the 28th of September. Four days later Dr. Kissinger had a television interview and he said this, these proposals of Mr. Smith's are concerned: "Secondly, it is not correct to say that Smith made these proposals; the proposals that Smith put forward were the result of a discussion between the United States, Great Britain and the African presidents, prior to my meeting with Smith.”

So if the discussions in Geneva are within the framework of these proposals which are not Smith's, but that of the United States, the UK and the African presidents, then it can succeed and then it will succeed, but if you deviate unilaterally from those principles, then I am afraid it is going to be very difficult.

Robin Wright: Mr. Prime Minister, if the talks should irretrievably break down, will South Africa continue to support Rhodesia, especially in war supplies that are so neccesary to fight the four year old guerrilla war coming through or coming from South Africa?

Prime Minister: What I am prepared to say in this regard, is that our attitude towards Rhodesia has always been that we do not indulge in boycotts; that we do not believe in closure of borders and ever since 1965 we have refused to be a party to these boycotts, and that the policy of South Africa will remain.

Robin Wright: Including war supplies? You will continue to allow them to go through.

Prime Minister: I am afraid that the answer that I have just given you is the answer that I want to give you at this stage.

George Herman: Mr. Prime Minister, on the television interview from which you have just quoted, I asked the Secretary of State, in addition, about the conflicting stories about the Kissinger/Callaghan proposal where one side said it was agreeable and the other side that they had never agreed to it and I asked him who was in error — whether it was the Black presidents or Rhodesia and Secretary Kissinger - and he said all sides seemed to be telling the truth; that there was a simple misunder­standing. Is that the way you view it?

Prime Minister: I am afraid I naturally cannot judge as far as that is concerned, because I was not present either when these matters were discussed with the so-called front-line president or when they were discussed with the British. 2 I can only speak of the knowledge that I have, when I was present, and according to the documents in my possession.

George Herman: Would you speak from that knowledge? How do you view it?

Prime Minister: My view is simply that certain proposals were put forward and I cannot go beyond what Dr. Kissinger himself said; that these proposals emanated from the British and the Americans and that it was discussed with the front-line presidents, and that it its face value.

George Herman: Did you get the impression that it had been accepted by the front-line presidents?

Prime Minister: Well, it was put that way by Dr. Kissinger himself. How well they understood it, I am not prepared to comment on whatsoever but that was how it was put.

Jack Foisie: Sir, I know you dislike the word "pressure”. What was your influence on Premier lan Smith that made him accept or helped to make him accept the proposals outlined by the Anglo-American-

Prime Minister: Prior to my going to Bonn to see Dr. Kissinger, I had a long discussion with Mr. Smith. When I came back I reported - those were just preliminary talks - but I reported on these preliminary talks to the Deputy-Prime Minister, Mr. David Smith, and the Minister of Transport of Rhodesia. Then, subsequently, after I returned from Zurich I had a long discussion with Mr. Smith, Mr. David Smith and Mr. Hawkins again; I reported fully to him of what transpired. Mr. Smith badly wanted to talk to Dr. Kissinger himself. Talks were arranged; they had a three-hours' talk where I was not present; discussed matters; they came to an understanding and out of that came the five points that I have already referred to. All that I did, was to give Mr. Smith the position as I saw it; we discussed the various alt but the decision — and I want to make that quite clear — the that Rhodesia arrived at, was its own decision and Rhodesia pressurized in any way by South Africa at that time or before that.

George Herman: Could I try another word on you? Did you encourage Mr. Smith?

Prime Minister: It is not for me to prescribe or to encourage him; it is only for me to discuss with him; to give my frank views to him as far as the alternatives are concerned, but I have always adopted the attitude and I said that at my Press conferences in Europe and I said that to Dr. Kissinger and each and everybody - that I was not prepared to twist Mr. Smith's arm but that any decision he arrived at would be his own.

Robin Wright: Exactly two years ago this month, you announced that you expected changes in South Africa within six months that would surprise the world. Are you satisfied that you have introduced those changes, because the world at this point does not appear to be surprised.

Prime Minister: No, I am afraid, you misunderstood what I said two years ago. In that particular speech in my constituency at Nigel, it so happened that I never spoke about changes at all. I spoke about South Africa's situation and I then went out of my way to say that — and I called upon the newspaper editors and commentators in this country and elsewhere, and I asked them to give South Africa a chance and I said if you gave South Africa that chance you would be surprised how far South Africa stood within six months. That was - you will recall - in 1974, when we started our African initiative and that was after I had made the speech in the Senate to which President Kaunda replied later on.

Robin Wright: Are you satisfied that detente with Black Africa is still in good shape; that there is still a dialogue going on?

Prime Minister: It has had certain set-backs, as is naturally to be expected. Many bridges were built; some of those bridges have been destroyed, others have remained and will remain and will stand the test of time.

Robin Wright: Do you plan to accelerate the pace of change in South Africa to show the world that you are getting along with the Blacks and that there is a peaceful situation here?

Prime Minister; I did not catch that first question.

Robin Wright: Do you plan to accelarate the pace of change in South Africa to show Black Africa that there is movement here?

Prime Minister: Whatever changes are made in South Africa, will not be made to show this man or that country anything; they will be made because it is necessary to make them in South Africa and in the South Africa context. I am not doing it to please any man; I am doing it because it is either right to make it or not.

Robin Wright: But in terms of the recent disorders, do you plan to accelerate the pace of change?

Prime Minister far as these matters are concerned, there are continuous changes in South Africa and things will naturally go on changing and I might add that all the really relevant changes that have ever been made in South Africa, were made by this government will continue to make them and I can give you many examples if we had the necessary time to do so.

George Herman: Then rather look forward than back: can you give us some idea of where you are thinking of moving from here?

Prime Minister: Moving with what or as to what?

Jack Foisie: As to the racial question.

George Herman: As to bringing peace to South Africa.

Prime Minister: I do not know whether that is the correct way of bringing it; that I must bring peace to South Africa, because apart from the disturbances that we have experienced, I think South Africa is as peaceful as the next country here in this dangerous world that we are living in. We have our student troubles, but that is nothing new as far as this world is concerned. You had them for years in the United States, to such an extent that you had to call in the Army; it was not necessary for South Africa to call in the Armed Forces. We had — and still have -33 thousand Policemen for the whole of the Republic of South Africa.

Jack Foisie: Since you made the comparison with the United States, our government took action and now we no longer have student demon­strations. My question really is as to your own plans.

Prime Minister: That is quite true. After your disturbances lasting a few years, you appointed - if my memory serves me right - 11 commissions to enquire into these disturbances. We have appointed a Judge to enquire into these disturbances and in due course we will receive his report and then we will be able to judge as far as these matters are concerned. 3

Jack Foisie: Do you believe it is the n enquiring commissions that brought peace to America, rather than change in policy.

Prime Minister: No, I do not know what brought peace; I can only judge that you appointed these commissions and I, for my part, have appointed a commission to go into these matters.

Jack Foisie: Sir, I think it comes down to a nub-type of question that perhaps people, not fully informed, are asking. With Blacks outnumbering Whites 4 to 1 in your nation, do you foresee Black majority rule some time in the future?

Prime Minister: Yes certainly, Black majority rule for the Xhosas in the Transkei; Black majority rule for the Zulus in Zululand; for the Vendas in Vendaland, for the Tswanas in their land, but certainly not in the rest of South Africa.

Jack Foisie: You are talking about the homelands. What if in the various tribal areas where you want the people to govern themselves, leaders of those tribes do not want independence? What happens to them?

Prime Minister: The position is that at the moment they are all self-governing territories. I can only take them so far as to give them self-government in every way. If they then want to take the final step, which is now taken, to become fully independent, it is up to them and independence is theirs for the asking. They can ask it tomorrow for that matter and it will be granted.

Jack Foisie: And what about the Blacks who live in the White cities or if the White cities and do not want to return to their tribal homelands, or have no — many were not born there — what happens to them, Sir?

Prime Minister: It is not only Blacks in the cities, but there are millions of Blacks on the farms too; there are rural and urban black people. But there are not only black people from Zululand or from the Transkei or from Vendaland; there are thousands and tens of thousands of black people from neighbouring independent black countries working in SA. There are more than a hundred and forty thousand from Lesotho which is an independent country; there are thousands from Swaziland; there are thousands from Botswana.

You will grant that the people from Lesotho, as far as their political rights are concerned, have to exercise those political rights in Lesotho, and the people from Botswana will have to exercise their political rights in Botswana. The same applies to the people of the Transkei: they will exercise their political rights in the Transkei and so I can go on.

And then I know the argument; the argument is; yes, but what about the urban Black who lives here? Then I can just tell you this: If you go to the Homeland of Qwaqwa and you will find that the Chief Minister of Qwaqwa is not a resident or was not a resident of Qwaqwa itself; he is an urban Black. 4 And you will find that many of his Ministers are urban Blacks. You take the Homeland of the North Sotho, the Lebowa Homeland. The Chief Minister, Dr. Phatudi, is an urban Black and yet he is the Chief Minister of that Homeland. And some of his Ministers are urban Blacks. In other words, when it comes to parliamentary or in terms of your language, probably, congressional rights, then they exercise that in their self-governing homelands which will later become independent. When it comes to municipal rights, local authority then they exercise that in the townships where they live and where they work.

Jack Foisie: As I understand your parallel, Sir, it would be similar to saying that if a man came from the State of Louisiana and lived all his life and reared his family in New York, his children could only exercise their rights in Louisiana because that was their homeland. Is that the kind of state you really want for your country?

Prime Minister: That is the position in South Africa and that has al­ways been the position and nobody seemed to find any fault with it because let me give you an example: Lesotho was never under South Africa, as you very well know. For a hundred years it was under Great Britain, and yet whilst it was still under Great Britain, me people of Lesotho - and as I have said, there are tens of thousands of them working in South Africa - voted in Lesotho in spite of the fact that they were not born there or that they did not live there and nobody found any fault with it at all. Now all of a sudden the system is wrong. You see, it is that sort of double standard which I do not appreciate.

Robin Wright: Do you really believe that the world is going to accept South Africa's policy, bearing in mind of the mounting criticism against it?

Prime Minister: Well, good lady, as far as my policy is concerned, this policy has been devised not for the world outside; it has been devised for South African conditions and for South African conditions alone. It is not meant for export, but as I have said, meant for South Africa the peculiar circumstances that do exist in South Africa itself.

George Herman: And you are convinced that it will quell what your Police Minister, Mr. Kruger, called "black anger”?

Prime Minister: I think as far as the political question is concerned, it will certainly do that.

Jack Foisie: Sir, some of your opinion polls, from your own National Party constituency, indicate that they are more prepared for change than the pace that you are showing in change. One, are the polls correct; two, how do you respond to this tug and pull?

Prime Minister: Well, if you can give me a specific example. I will be in a position to reply to it.

Jack Foisie: Your Rapport, on this last Sunday, Sir.

Prime Minister: Yes, and to what specific aspect are you referring?

Jack Foisie: To the fact that the majority of the people polled, suggested that they were quite ready to accept more change to accommodate or to increase Black rights than the government is at present allowing.

Prime Minister: No, as far as I am concerned, I have tried to tell the good lady that I am satisfied with the pace the things are moving and that changes will continuously be made as in the past.

George Herman: Mr. Prime Minister, are you in any kind of agreement with the State of Israel on nuclear power equipment? 5

Prime Minister This matter has never been discussed with Israel at all.

George Herman: Are you going to go ahead on nuclear power equipment yourself?

We are, as we have often stated, only concerned with the peaceful uses of nuclear power, if that is what you have in mind.

George Herman: That is what I have in mind to begin with and I am curious as to whether you will be working with any other country or doing this entirely internally.

Prime Minister: No, we have developed our own process as you know; naturally we will be pleased to work with others as we have said before.

George Herman: Thank you very much, Prime Minister, for being our guest on FACE THE NATION.

Pr ime Minister: Thank you.

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1 The Natal Mercury, 25.9.1976 on Friday night, 24 September 1976, Mr. lan Smith that Rhodesia would have majority rule within two years. For the Point, 1.10.1976, pp. 7-10.

2. When Dr. Kissinger left South Africa the most difficult part of his shuffle diplomacy lay ahead. After two-and-a-half hours of talks with Dr. Kissinger, President Kaunda announced that he and other Black frontline Presidents - the leaders of Tanzania, Botswana and Mozambique - would soon meet to decide whether to accept or reject the outcome of the Kissinger peace mission. See also Cape Times, 21.9.1975.

3 Judge P. M. Cillie was appointed as a one-man committee.

4 Mr. P. K. Mopeli is the Chief Minister of Qwaqwa.

5 On April 4, 1976, the Government of Israel announced that Mr. B.J. Vorster would soon visit Israel. See To the Point, 16.4.1976, p. 7. On his return to the Republic Mr. Vorster announced in parliament that a Ministerial Joint Committee comprising Ministers of South Africa and Israel would be established, and that this Committee would meet at least once a year and would make an overall review of the situation of the economic relations between the two countries and would discuss ways and means to expand the economic co-operation and trade between the two countries. See Assembly Debates, Part XII, 20-23 April 1976, col, 5200.

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