They assess the apartheid system in terms of the profits or the losses it yields. It has always been clear that for them the apartheid system will be useful so long as it delivers the goods ... If they reach the conclusion that indeed, the apartheid system is going to destroy their interests, destroy their business, the whole economy, at that point they will want to remove the apartheid system and will even join with forces that are set to destroy that system provided they are sure that the system will not be replaced with something worse for their economy, for their pockets, for their profits. But to the extent that our struggle had demonstrated that there is no future for them or for the economy - to that extent they will begin to move against the regime. Because, within limits, they are still part of it, it means that can be an additional lever, a position which favours our struggle. And that is how we see their role.

Therefore, if it serves the purpose of weakening the ability of the regime to resist, if it helps to destroy the system, then we welcome that ... It is the armed component of our struggle which causes the greatest threat for the apartheid system and its economy and under conditions of our struggle there is instability. They would rather, therefore, that the change were smooth, so that they have time to be adjusting to the change, by way of reforms, which means that there would be no rapid change transformation, and that we would be talking and arguing about things while they are making their profits, for 10 years, 20 years for 30 years, while they are making profits ... It is the armed component which has made them want to come to the ANC ... to see whether there is prospect of this being suspended.

We naturally told them we could not abandon armed struggle. Armed struggle - it was a product, a direct product, of the apartheid system, of the existence of the apartheid system. And this affects the extent to which they can really come on our side.

What replaces the apartheid system? What would be their position in the new system? Well, they cannot look forward to the kind of system that the ANC has in mind under the Freedom Charter, but at least they understood the reasons why the Freedom Charter had those provisions or why our people thought of putting those provisions in the Freedom Charter. They also want to reform the apartheid system in such a way that the end result is a system which secures their business but is minus racial discrimination. And that is what they are looking for - a system that falls short of the stipulations of the Freedom Charter but moves away from a system that thrives on violence and produces counter-violence. Well, we do not think that such a system is different. We certainly do not think that the regime and its supporters are really thinking of something which may be slightly different. We certainly do not think that the regime and its supporters are really thinking of an alternative to the apartheid system. They are thinking of something which may be slightly different. It might even be called something else, not apartheid, but would in practice be apartheid. We must protect our struggle against forces which sound correct but whose objective is entirely to destroy the cause, the ·objective, of our revolutionary struggle".